Simplifying the Investment Decision

A Basic Overview for Emerging Physician and Medical Professional Investors

By Somnath Basu; PhD, MBA

There are three basic considerations in any investment decision.

1] The first is the understanding of the investment objective or why the investment is being made. While this may seem somewhat irrelevant at first – why would you be investing if you do not know what you are doing – combining investment objectives can pose problems down-stream.

For example, if you are saving for your retirement so that you can afford the retirement lifestyle you desire (the investment objective), your saving plan should not include any savings you are making for your children’s education (a separate investment objective). Compounding the two savings streams in one plan can very easily lead to one or both of the plans failing.

2] The second consideration is the time horizon of the investment. As a rough guide, investments that need to mature in the next 5-7 years can be considered as short term, 8-15 years as medium term and the rest as long term.

3] Finally, and probably the most important consideration of all is the importance you attach (priority) to achieving your investment objective; in other words, how safe and secure should your investments be. For example, if you are 70 years old and considering how you should invest your retirement funds so that your expenses are covered say for the next 25 years, you do not want a large margin of error in how your investments turn out; you can ill afford to be broke when you are older and hence you want your investments to be as secure as possible.

On the other hand, if the investment is for a second home or a boat, for example, you may wish to engage in some risk taking which may help in lowering your upfront investment needs. It is very important for any investor to clearly understand how much loss they can bear from any investment decision.

Decision Matrix

It is useful to express the investment framework described above as a simple decision matrix. Using the matrix (shown below) as a decision support system should clarify and simplify most investment decisions.

Link:  Investment Scenarios

Understanding where in the matrix your decision falls is a very good first step of your decision. Both these elements (safety and time) will ultimately decide the kinds of financial instruments that will reside in your portfolio. We will examine the structure of each of the 9 possible combinations shown in the matrix. Before doing so, let us start by examining the various investment alternatives (e.g. stocks, bonds, etc.) since they have an implicit connection with the two dimensions portrayed in our matrix.

Stocks

Stocks are the most well known and popular form of financial investments. Stocks may be further segregated between large cap and small cap stocks, where the term “cap” is surrogate for the size of the underlying corporation or firm.

Stocks may represent investments in both domestic and international companies. Within the international category, stocks may represent corporations registered in developed (safer) or emerging (riskier) markets. In terms of our matrix dimensions, stocks are best suited when the decision is of medium or long term. In terms of safety, large cap (both domestic and international) stocks are the safest, while small cap and emerging market stocks are the most risky. The riskier the stock, the greater are the profit possibilities as are the chances of large losses.

Bonds 

The second common type of investment are bonds Generally, bonds are much safer than stocks with the exception of a class of bonds known as high yield (or junk) bonds. Bonds are issued by companies, governments (domestic and international) and other agencies such as local governments (municipal bonds or “munis” which are especially desirable for those in high income tax rate categories) and quasi-government agencies such as Federal Home Loan Bank, Student Loan Administration, Agricultural Cooperative Banks, etc (collectively known as “Agency” bonds such as Ginnie/Fannie/Sallie Mae, Freddie Mac, etc.).

Government bonds are the safest, followed by agency and municipal bonds and then by bonds issues by corporations.

Corporate bonds may be safe (which are assigned credit safety ratings such as AAA, AA, BBB, etc.) or risky (junk bonds with ratings such as BB, CCC, CC etc.).

Bonds can be used for all time horizons, their maturities ranging from 3 months to 30 years. Very short term bond and bond like instruments (with maturities of one year or less) are known as money market securities which are generally safer than most other investments.

Alternate Investments

Other types of investments include real estate (long term, risky), commodities (such as energy, basic building materials, precious metals, etc.) which are also risky and which may be used for both short term and long term purposes and provide a good hedge (counter balance) in an inflationary environment, derivatives (options and futures) which are very risky and typically short term in nature. Derivatives are generally suggested for very sophisticated investors and are best left alone otherwise.

Risk Reduction

A very important feature about investments is that when various types of investments are bundled together in a portfolio, they help to reduce the risk of the investment decision without affecting the profits in a comparable way. This basic aspect of mixing various kinds of investments (stocks, bonds, etc) to reduce risk is known as diversification and it is a “must” for any investment portfolio. It is a “must” because this technique of risk reduction is generally costless (unless you are paying a financial advisor to do this for you) and it is very worthwhile. All other methods of risk reduction have cost implications.

Scenario Matrix

Armed with this nomenclature regarding various investment types we can now go about examining what the 9 combination (Scenario) portfolios may look like for investment purposes.

Link: Investment Scenarios

Starting with Scenario 1, if you wish to make a short term decision that is very important to you and needs to be very safe, investments should be made in very short term bonds (government or treasury bills)and other similar money market (short term, safe) securities. International short term bonds of developed countries may also be included. Such investment products are generally available through mutual funds or Exchange Traded Funds (or ETFs). ETFs are just like mutual funds except that they are usually cheaper, much easier to buy and sell and may provide tax deferral benefits.

If your investment falls in the Scenario 2 category, include agency/municipal bonds as well as some domestic and international (developed country) large cap stocks while for Scenario 3, smaller portions of small cap and emerging market stocks may be added proportionately while reducing some of the safer investments.

If your investment was a Scenario 4 type of investment, corporate large cap stocks (both domestic and international) could be added to agency or corporate (domestic and international) bonds. Before investing in stocks (in any Scenario) for this Scenario 4, a good question to ask is the following:  how profitable were stock investments in the last 3-5 years? If the answer is “very profitable” then reduce the proportion of stocks as compared to bonds in the portfolio. If the last few years were not good, then it would be good to increase their comparable shares. The main reason for this “fine tuning” is that the fortunes of stocks (and many other types of investments) follow a cyclical pattern and the cycle is related to the general cycle of economic (GDP) growth and contraction.

It can be seen now how Scenarios 5 and 6 (as also 8 and 9) will follow a similar pattern as before, increasing proportionally in stocks (of all sizes, domestic/international), real estate, commodities, etc. Portfolios falling in these groups may also include some small cap and emerging market stocks as well as high yield or junk bonds. The proportion of these riskier investments would of course be higher for Scenario 6 over Scenario 5 (and Scenario 9 over 8).

For Scenario 7, the investment portfolio would typically resemble one that would be like an opposite of the portfolio in Scenario 1 and would include a greater proportion of large cap (domestic/international) stocks and a much smaller proportion of bonds. As we move towards Scenarios 8 and 9, the portfolios would be dominated by small cap and emerging market stocks as well as junk bonds.

Assessment

In the discussion above, I have tried to generalize the investment decision in a simplifying way. While the discussion may have centered more on stocks and bonds, it is important to note that all portfolios must “diversify” the investment risks by expanding upon the various types of investment products contained in the portfolios. The very fact that a portfolio contains various types of investments will ensure that the portfolio will perform better than those which are not as well diversified. This will be so in spite of any one of the investment types underperforming at any point in time and the diversification benefit will be received consistently over long periods of time. A popular analogy to this diversification benefit is the common phrase of not putting all eggs in one basket.

Editor’s Note: Somnath Basu PhD is program director of the California Institute of Finance in the School of Business at California Lutheran University where he’s also a professor of finance. He can be reached at (805) 493 3980 or basu@callutheran.edu

Conclusion

The above approach to investment decision-making can be considered as a basic template that can be used universally. For those seeking greater sophistication and who have a foundation built on the above model, expert advice is strongly recommended.

And so, your thoughts and comments on this ME-P are appreciated. Financial advisors please chime in on the debate? Is Basu correct; why or why not? Review our top-left column, and top-right sidebar materials, links, URLs and related websites, too. Then, be sure to subscribe to the ME-P. It is fast, free and secure.

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Physicians and FAs Dealing with Debt Collaboratively

A Holistic Approach to Financial Health Planning

[By Somnath Basu; PhD, MBA]

Financial Advisers [FAs] often feel helpless in the face of fierce resistance from clients, especially doctors, to rein in their spending, stop living beyond their means and salt away more of their paychecks. Even worse, the financial services industry’s less discerning practitioners are enabling reckless behavior for fear of losing business.

Psychological MoJo

A huge part of the problem is psychological. Look no further than the emerging field of behavioral finance to explain why average Americans of all ages and walks of life feel pressure to keep up with their neighbor. The unfortunate result, of course, is that consumers max out their credit cards, tap equity lines of credit or consolidate loans in pursuit of the American Dream. But, in the process, they often fall victim to over-consumption and under-saving.

Bad Faith Lenders

Unscrupulous lenders are exploiting doctors and consumers with interest-only loans and variable-rate home buying without a down payment – the latter labeled in one recent headline as a car-dealer tactic on the new-home lot. Another gimmick ties a home equity loan to life insurance with the promise of zero premiums, albeit no escape from a lien on equity no matter how it’s sold to an unsuspecting public.

Debt Consolidation Issues

There’s also the issue of determining whether it’s prudent for physicians to consolidate their debt. Many online calculators use the current monthly payment figure as the basis for comparison against monthly payments after debt consolidation, which is erroneous since payments in subsequent periods aren’t compared. This flawed approach is enough to convince unwary people they should consolidate their loans, and in many cases, it justifies a resumption of conspicuous consumption – leading to a vicious cycle.

Need for Discipline

Before a Financial Advisor even gets through a doctor-client’s front door, chances are that the person they’re meeting with might require the services of a psychotherapist and/or credit counselor (or require such a recommendation) to examine the root causes of their propensity for reckless spending and suggest a need for financial discipline.

Wants versus Needs

There must be a clear understanding of the difference between needs (i.e., retiring with peace of mind) and desires (i.e., living the high life), and a willingness to change. It means not eating out five times a week or financing a $75,000 kitchen remodeling makeover, cutting back on entertainment, or making more than the minimum payment on credit card balances. It means not rushing out to buy a house or perhaps finding a local college for children to attend and spare the added expense of housing them in a dormitory. Only then can physician’s and all of us, earmark increasing amounts from each paycheck to build a comfortable savings cushion.

A New Collaborative Approach

What’s needed is a collaborative approach [much like emerging Health 2.0 participatory medicine], since Financial Advisers cannot be the sole catalyst for change. The media too, needs to do much more reporting on the dangers of debt. Politicians need to make difficult choices [a balanced budget, for example] and business leaders need to be more vigilant about adopting ethical practices when it comes to lending, advertising or marketing products and services that feed the vicious cycle of indebtedness.

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The Courage to Deliver Tough Love

Astute Financial Advisers can take on a real collaborative leadership role with regard to helping doctors and other clients avoid or dig out of debt; but the FAs who have the intestinal fortitude tend to have the most affluent clients. So the question becomes, do they have the courage to deliver tough love to their working or upper-middle class, or affluent middle-class clients and prospects?

The Faithful

For doctors to have faith in their FAs, they need to trust their expertise as a financial health practitioner and believe in the power of a diversified investment portfolio. But, they also need to be repeatedly told to stick with their long-term financial plan whenever there’s a downturn in financial markets and not be swayed by fear or the lure of short-term gain.

Financial Advisers who are willing to recognize and treat the symptoms of irrational decision-making, and educate their physician-clients on the follies of making emotion-based decisions, will be able to distinguish themselves in a competitive market. They need to understand investor psychology, as well as identify behavioral biases and offer counsel about the perils and consequences of irrational decisions. They need to know their target physician market-audience, too. This will enhance the results of their long-term planning.

Rethinking Mission

At the end of the day, it’s not just a matter of offering financial planning. It’s as much about life planning as helping get a client’s financial house in order. Just ask Richard Wagner or George Kinder, who describe the movement they created as “the human side of financial planning” and holds workshops that teach advisers client-relationship skills.

But, an even better objective would be to offer financial health planning as part of a more holistic, and arguably, effective approach.

Avoiding Unscrupulous Lending Practices

The best Financial Advisers know how to steer their clients away from unscrupulous lending practices, resist the urge to over-consume and learn financial discipline; but unfortunately they’re a rare breed. Unless the status quo changes, financial planning runs the risk of irrelevance.

How can people possibly expect to amass adequate savings for a home, child’s education and/or retirement if they can’t first dig out of debt? The only possible result will be legions of unhappy clients.

NPOs?

One way to help combat the nation’s difficulty in dealing with debt would be through the creation of a quasi-governmental, nonprofit organization whose educational mission is to better understand the basic issues surrounding the need to borrow money.

But, perhaps the time has come for the some 200 educational institutions that teach financial planning to pool their resources in hopes of becoming a credible watchdog of the nation’s financial health.

Lawmakers increasingly have come to the realization that financial literacy needs to become a higher priority. Advisers should never forget that sound financial health is a necessary condition for good physical and mental health, especially since most married couples argue about money more than anything else and financial distress is a leading cause of depression.

Link: http://www.fa-mag.com/issues.php?id_content=2&idArticle=1640#

Assessment

In the future, Financial Advisers could serve as financial health practitioners in partnership with counselors, behavioralists and psychologists. The very health of financial planning just might depend upon it.

Somnath Basu, Ph.D., is program director of the California Institute of Finance in the School of Business at California Lutheran University where he’s also a professor of finance. He can be reached at (805) 493 3980 or basu@callutheran.edu.

Conclusion

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Introducing Somnath Basu; PhD MBA

Our Newest ME-P Thought-Leader in Finance and Economics

By Ann Miller; RN, MHA

[Executive Director]Dr. Basu

Dr. Somnath Basu is a Professor of Finance at California Lutheran University and the Director of its California Institute of Finance. Dr. Basu is also a Professor of the Helsinki School of Economics Executive MBA Program. He earned his BA in Economics, University of Delhi, MBA (Finance), Marquette University and a PhD (Finance), University of Arizona.

Publications and Experience

Dr. Basu is extensively published in the field of investments and financial planning and is an award winning teacher. He has significant consulting experience with US Fortune 100 companies, advising institutional money managers and in developing proprietary personal investment software. Dr. Basu is actively involved with financial planning organizations including the National Endowment for Financial Education (NEFE), the CFP Board of Standards, International CFP Board and the Financial Planning Association. He coauthored the book (with Block and Hirt), “Investment Planning for Financial Professionals” McGraw Hill, May 2006 which is widely used by financial planning programs nationwide. 

AssessmentCLU

To regular our ME-P readers, Dr. Basu’s opinions are well known and not without controversy. But, whether you agree with him or not, his commitment to the industry and his economics and financial planning students is solid. And, always adhering to the Socratic dialog tradition of candor intelligence and goodwill.

Link: https://healthcarefinancials.wordpress.com/2009/04/09/i-jealously-shake-my-fist-at-somnath-basu/

Link: https://healthcarefinancials.wordpress.com/2009/04/16/dr-somnath-basu-replies-to-the-cfp%c2%ae-mis-trust-controversy/ 

Conclusion

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I Jealously “Shake my Fist” at Somnath Basu PhD

On CFP® Mis [Trust] – One Doctor’s Painful Personal Experience

[“So Sorry to Say it … but I Told You So”]

By: Dr David Edward Marcinko; FACFAS, MBA, CMP™

[Publisher-in-Chief]dem21

According to Somnath Basu, writing on April 6, 2009 in Financial Advisor a trade magazine, the painful truth is that many financial practitioners are merely sales people masquerading, as financial planners [FPs] and/or financial advisors [FAs] in an industry whose ethical practices have a shameful track record. Well, I agree, and completely. This includes some who hold the Certified Financial Planner® designation, as well as the more than 98 other lesser related organizations, logo marks and credentialing agencies [none of which demand ERISA-like fiduciary responsibility]. For more on this topic, the ME-P went right to the source last month, in an exclusive interview with Ben Aiken; AIF® of Fi360.com  

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The CFP® Credential – What Credential?

Basu further writes that stockbrokers and insurance agents who earn commissions from buying and selling stocks, insurance and other financial products realize that a Certified Financial Planner® credential will help grow the volume of their business or branch them into other related and lucrative products and services. After all, there are more than 55,000 of these “credentialed” folks. And, this marketing designation seems to have won the cultural wars in the hearts and minds of an unsuspecting – i.e., duped public; probably because of sheer numbers. Didn’t a CFP Board CEO state that its’ primary goal was growth, a few years ago? Can you say “masses of asses”, as the oft quoted Bill Gates of Microsoft used to say when only 2,000 micro-softies defeated 400,000 IBMers during the PC operating system wars of the early 1980’s. Quantity, and marketing money, can trump quality in the public-relations business; ya’ know … if you repeat the lie often enough … yada … yada … yada! Yet, as the so-called leading industry designation, the CFP® entry-barrier standard is woefully low. Moreover, the SEC’s [FINRA] Series #7 general securities licensure sales examination is not worth much more than a weekend’s study attention, even to the uninitiated.

insurance-book2

Easy In – Worth Less Out

In our experience, we agree with Basu and others who suggest that scores of lightly educated, and sometimes wholly in-articulate and impatient individuals are zipping through the CFP® Board of Standards approved curriculum in three to six months of online, on-ground, or “self-study”. But, that some can do so without a bachelor’s degree when they join wire-houses and financial institutions, which cannot be trusted to adequately train them, is an abomination. And, even more sadly, some of these CFP™ mark-holders, and other folks, believe they have actually received an “education” from same. Of course, their writing skills are often non-existent and I have cringed when told that, in their opinion, advertiser-driven trade magazines constitute “peer-reviewed” and academic publications. Incidentally, have you noticed how thin these trade-rags are getting lately? Much like the print newspaper industry, are they becoming dinosaurs? One agent even told me, point-blank, that his CLU designation was the equivalent of an “academic PhD in insurance.” This was at an industry seminar, where he thought I was a lay insurance prospect.

THINK: No critical thinking skills.

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Education

There is another sentiment that may be applied in many of these cases; “hubris.” I mean, these CFP® people … just don’t know – how much they don’t know.”  The very real difference between training versus education is unknown to many wire-houses and FAs, isn’t it? And, please don’t get me started on the differences in pedagogy, heutagogy and androgogy. Moreover, it’s sad when we see truly educated youngsters become goaded by wire-houses into thinking that these practices are de-rigor for the industry. One such applicant to our Certified Medical Planner™ program, for example, had both an undergraduate degree in finance and a graduate degree in economics from the prestigious Johns Hopkins University – in my home town of Baltimore, MD [name available upon request]. He was told, in his Smith Barney wire-house training program, to eschew CMP™ accountability and RIA fiduciary responsibility, when working with potential physician and lay clients; but to get his CFP® designation to gather more clients. To mimic my now 12 year-old daughter; it seems that: SEC Suitability Rules – and – Fiduciary Accountability Drools. And, to quote Hollywood’s “Mr. T”; I pity the fools, er-a, I mean clients. But, T was an actor, and this is serious business.

cmp-logo1

Of CEU Credits and Ethics

Beside trade-marks and logos, we are all aware that continuing education, and a code of ethics, is another important marketing and advertising component of state insurance agents and CFP licensees. It’s that old “be” – or “pretend to be” – a trusted advisor clap-trap. Well, I say horse-feathers for two reasons. First, both my insurance and CFP® Continuing Educational Unit [CEU] requirements were completed by my daughter [while age 7-10], by filling in the sequentially identical and bubble-coded, multiple-choice, answer-blanks each year. Second, this included the mandatory “ethics” portions of each test. When I complained to my CEU vendor, and state insurance department, I was told to “enjoy-the-break.”  My daughter even got fatigued after the third of fourth time she took the “home-based tests” for me.  After I opened my big mouth, the exact order of questions was changed to increase acuity, but remained essentially the same, nevertheless. My daughter got bored, and quit taking the tests for me, shortly thereafter. She always “passed.”dhimc-book3

Thus, like Basu, I also find that far too many financial advisors are unwilling to devote the time necessary to achieve a sound education that will help attain their goals, and would rather sell variable or whole life products than simple term life, even when the suitability argument overwhelmingly suggests so, for a higher payday. We not only have met sale folks without undergraduate degrees, but also too many of those with only a HS diploma, or GED. Perhaps this is why a popular business truism suggests that the quickest way for the uneducated/under educated class to make big bucks, is in sales. Just note the many classified ads for financial advisors placed in the newspaper job-section, under the heading “sales.” Or, in more youthful cultural terms, “fake it – until you make it.”

Of the iMBA, Inc Experience

According to Executive Director Ann Miller RN MHA, and my experience at the Institute of Medical Business Advisors, Inc:

“Far too many financial advisors who contact us about matriculation in our online Certified Medical Planner™ program – in health economics and management for medical professionals – don’t even know what a Curriculum Vitae [CV] is? Instead, they send in Million Dollar Roundtable awards, Million Dollar Producer awards, or similar sales accomplishments as resume’ boosters. It is also not unusual for them to list some sort of college participation on their resumes, and websites, but no school affiliation or dates of graduation, etc. And, they become furious to learn that we require a college degree for our fiduciary focused CMP™ program, and not from an online institution, either. The onslaught of follow-up nasty phone-calls; faxes and emails are laughable [frightening] too.”  

www.MedicalBusinessAdvisors.com

Assessment

More often than not, it is the financial institutions that FAs and CFP™ certificants’ work for that reward sales behavior with higher commissions, rather than salaries; which encourage such behavior and create the vicious cycles that are now the norm.

THINK: ML, AIG, Citi, WAMU, Wachovia, Hartford, Prudential, etc.

Note: Original author of Restoring Trust in the CFP Mark, Somnath Basu PhD, is program director of the California Institute of Finance in the School of Business at California Lutheran University where he’s also a professor of finance. He can be reached at (805) 493 3980 or basu@callutheran.edu. We have asked him to respond further.

My Story: I am a retired surgeon and former Certified Financial Planner® who resigned my “marketing trademark” over the long-standing fiduciary flap. I watched this chicanery for more than a decade after protesting to magazines like Investment Advisor, Financial Advisor, Registered Rep, Financial Planner, the FPA, etc; up to, and even including the CFP® Board of Standards; to no avail. Feel free to contact me for a copy of a 43 page fax, and other supportive documentation from the CFP® Board of Standards – and their outsourced intellectual property attorneys – over a Federal trademark infringement lawsuit they tried to institute against me for innocent website errors placed by a visually impaired intern. Obviously, they disliked the launch of our CMP™ program. As a health economist and devotee of Ken Arrow PhD, I polity resigned my license, as holding no utility for me, to the shocked CFP Board. They later offered to consider re-instatement for a mere $600 fee with letter of explanation, to which I politely declined. Of course, my first thought after living in the streets of South Philadelphia while in medical school, during the pre-Rocky era, was to say f*** off – but I didn’t. Nevertheless, I still seem to be on their mailing list, years later. No doubt, the list is sold, and re-sold, to various advertisers for much geld. And, why shouldn’t they; an extra bachelor, master and medical degree holder on their PR roster looks pretty good. I distrust the CFP® Board almost as much as I distrust the AMA, and its parsed and disastrous big-pharma funding policies. Right is right – wrong is wrong – and you can’t fool all of the people, all of the time, especially in this age of internet transparency.

Shaking my Fist at Somnath … in Envy

And so, why do I shake my fist at Somnath Basu? It’s admittedly with congratulations, and a bit of schadenfreude, because he wrote an article more eloquently than I ever could, and will likely receive much more publicity [good or slings-arrows] for doing so. You know, it’s very true that one is never a prophet in his own tribe. Oh well, Mazel Tov anyway for stating the obvious, Somnath. The financial services industry – and more specifically – the CFP® emperor have no clothes! Duh!

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Good Guys and White Hats

Now that Basu’s article has appeared in Financial Advisor News e-magazine, the other industry trade magazines are sure to follow the CFP® certification denigration reportage, in copy-cat fashion. And, the fiduciary flap is just getting started. This is indeed unfortunate, because I do know many fine CFP® certificants, and non-CFP® certified financial advisors, who are well-educated, honest and work very diligently on behalf of their clients. It’s just a shame the public has no way of knowing about them – there is no white hat imprimatur or designation for same – most of whom are Registered Investment Advisors [RIAs] or RIA reps. For example, we know great folks like Douglas B. Sherlock MBA, CFA; Robert James Cimasi MHA, AVA, CMP™; J. Wayne Firebaugh, Jr CPA, CFP®, CMP™; Lawrence E. Howes MBA, CFP®; Pati Trites PhD; Gary A. Cook MSFS, CFP®, CLU; Tom Muldowney MSFS, CLU, CFP®, CMP™;  Jeffrey S. Coons PhD, CFP®; Alex Kimura MBA, CFP®; Ken Shubin-Stein MD, CFA; and Hope Hetico RN, MHA, CMP™; etc. And, to use a medical term, there are TNTC [too many, to count] more … thankfully!

Conclusion

Your thoughts and comments on this ME-P are appreciated. Feel free to review our top-left column, and top-right sidebar materials, links, URLs and related websites, too. Then, subscribe to the ME-P. It is fast, free and secure.

Speaker: If you need a moderator or speaker for an upcoming event, Dr. David E. Marcinko; MBA – Publisher-in-Chief of the Medical Executive-Post – is available for seminar or speaking engagements. Contact: MarcinkoAdvisors@msn.com

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